AN INTERVIEW WITH JACK TRUE BY JON RAPPOPORT
AN INTERVIEW WITH JACK TRUE
MAY 12, 2007. People have been sending me emails saying they’re very
excited about getting, FREE, the several thousand pages of interviews
and articles in my NEWSLETTER collection.
This is the free bonus you get for signing up for my upcoming
tele-workshop, RELATIONSHIPS. But you have to sign up by May 22.
So I thought I’d give you, here, a sample of an interview with one of
the most popular sources in the newsletter collection—Jack True.
As you’ll see, this is a unique mind. A person who never bought into the
lies of our society. This is a very quick mind. Jack comes up with
unexpected answers and insights at every step. He sees things from a
very different perspective. Buckle up. A conversation with Jack is a
This is the kind of interview you’ll get in the NEWSLETTER COLLECTION.
AN INTERVIEW WITH JACK TRUE
By Jon Rappoport
Jack True was many things.
He worked as a hypnotherapist with private clients. He was a pioneer in
developing methods of bringing people out of the every-day trances they
were in. I believe he was, until his death in the 1990s, the most
innovative hypnotist in the world.
Jack was also connected with people on the inside of the various
institutions of government. He was fed a stream of private information
about what was really going on in the world.
When I began the massive research effort that resulted in the writing
and publication of my first book, AIDS INC., Jack was there with many
suggestions and contacts. He gave me important clues about what was
happening inside the government medical-research facilities.
Here is an interview I did with him in 1987. It concerns his work and
his bold breakthroughs.
As you’ll see, Jack was a thorny character. Impatient, provoking, always
trying to get you to think harder and farther. In our interviews, we
often sparred with each other. Jack enjoyed that. He was a chess player
in these conversations. He always liked to knock people off balance so
they could come to some new conclusions…
Jack gets into some fascinating areas in this conversation.
Brainwashing. The functions of the brain. Secret energies. Androids.
Q: First of all, what are your impressions about what’s happening to
A: Well, the centers of cognition in the mind are getting stretched out
and thinned out and in many cases they are becoming almost useless.
People can’t follow a train of thought. So how are you going to approach
them with ideas that require some real consideration?
Q: Why is this happening?
A: Many reasons. But I focus on CENTERS.
Q: What kinds of centers?
A: In the mind, of course. That’s where the drama is being played out.
There are pleasure centers and centers of thought, and centers of
feeling, and so on.
Q: Does this have anything to do with why people try to get out of the
box and then stop?
A: What box are you talking about?
Q: Their ordinary reality. The reality they live in every day.
A: You want them to get out of it? Why?
Q: Because they’re stuck in it.
A: There is no box.
Q: Sure there is.
A: There is the brain. Maybe that’s what you mean by the box.
Q: The brain?
A: Yeah. Ever heard of it?
Q: I believe so.
A: Are you using your brain right now?
Q: Yes, Jack. Although you’re making it harder.
A: How do you know you’re using your brain? Can you feel it? Can you
feel it turning out thoughts? For all you know, your brain might be a
1957 Chevy engine. How could you tell?
Q: I believe some researchers have worked it out.
A: Is that right? Well, they haven’t. I prefer to listen to my clients
tell me about their brains while they’re under hypnosis. Then you get
some really good information.
Q: What? You hypnotize people and ask them about their brains?
A: Absolutely. I want to know what they think about the brain. Do you
know why? Because everybody has a kind of awe about the brain. It’s like
some sort of religious symbol. There is a religion of the brain.
Q: Yeah? Where is their church headquarters?
A: Spread out in brain-research facilities all over the world. And their
goal is to make androids. People who react to signals and feel happy.
Q: Brave New World.
A: I’d call it Cowardly New World. Pavlov is their number-one saint. A
colleague of mine once told me a joke about that. A dog attacked Pavlov
and killed him. The dog got angry. He didn’t like listening to that bell
that told him food was coming. The dog wanted to find his own food, and
he finally exploded and killed his master. I can tell you this. If they
succeed in making a Brave New World, it’ll never last. The population
will rebel and destroy every society in the world. They’ll level every
government and every army….you’ve heard of pleasure centers in the
A: Well, that’s what does it.
Q: Does what?
A: That’s how classical hypnosis works. You reach in and stimulate a
pleasure center. That’s the beginning and the end of old-time old-school
hypnosis. That’s what’s going on.
Q: I don’t get it.
A: Sure you do. You’re just playing dumb, to worm some more information
out of me. You put people in trance by stimulating a pleasure center.
When people feel pleasure, they go along with you. They agree with you.
They think you’ve got something to offer. They want to be your friend.
Q: So pleasure is brainwashing.
A: No. You’re twisting it. I once hypnotized a man and told him to look
at his brain and tell me how many pleasure centers he had. He said,
“Three.” That was his answer. That’s what he saw. I told him to go to
the first one and tell me what was in there. He said, “It’s like a
doorway. It’s a symbol of a door to a magic land.”
Q: He really said that?
A: Yes. And I took him at his word. So I said, “Walk through the door.”
And he did. He said, “I’m in a place where I take orders, and all the
orders are good.” That was interesting. So I gave him an order. I said,
“You feel wealthy. You feel rich.” And you know what happened?
A: He smiled. Big smile. Goofy smile. Like he was on a drug. I had him
hooked up to a monitor. And I saw that his blood pressure came right
down. He had high blood pressure. And it came right down, in about a
minute, into the normal range. Just like that.
Q: And he was happy.
A: Right. So then I had a little problem.
Q: You got his blood pressure down, but to do it you put him in a place
where he was compliant—
A: He was an android. Taking orders. He was operating like a biological
machine. Under external control. His consciousness was focused on a
pleasure center in his own brain. Get it?
Q: Yeah. So you didn’t want to leave him there.
A: Other people would. I wouldn’t. I brought back out, and within thirty
minutes his blood pressure was back up again. Just like that.
Q: How about this, Jack? Every week, you keep putting him under for a
few minutes. You direct him to that pleasure center, and you give him
the same order: “You feel like you’re rich.” You condition him to expect
that pleasure, and so his blood pressure comes down. Permanently.
A: Do you think I’m stupid? Of course I tried that. Didn’t work. The
blood pressure came down, but it didn’t stay down. And after four
sessions, it didn’t come down at all, even while he was in the pleasure
Q: Why not?
A: Because something else took over. He knew I was tricking him. He knew
this was a game. He wouldn’t respond in the same way. That’s the first
reason. The second reason it didn’t work is much more important. He got
A: Yeah. That’s a major discovery. People get bored with pleasure. Of
course, every advertising agency knows that. That’s why they keep
shifting their ads. And that’s why companies keep “improving” their
products. They’re reaching out beyond the last wave of boredom, and
they’re trying to find a new place in a pleasure center.
Q: Seems to be working.
A: I have my doubts. I think we’re reaching the end of the line.
Q: What do you mean?
A: We’re reaching a point where people are going to stop buying things
at the same rate they’re buying them now. The curve is disintegrating.
Slowly. It’s happening. The consumer is getting wise to the tricks. His
boredom is spreading. The boredom is outreaching and outdistancing the
attempts to stimulate his pleasure centers.
A: Big thing, my friend. Big. But you see, we have to back up and look
at what I’m talking about here. All this stuff concerns what happens
when people are being manipulated. That’s the primary factor. All this
has to do with a form of hypnotism I don’t practice anymore. In which
the person is under the control of someone else. In this setting, you
can tap into pleasure centers and you can release certain chemicals, and
you can give birth to all sorts of effects in the body. You can do that.
But it’s within the context of external control.
Q: Yeah. I see where you’re going. Even if you took something like
A: Now you’re on the beam. Extraordinary effects. Let’s say I put
someone in a major trance and I have him tap into a place where he feels
there is a pleasure center. That’s what the patient believes, and so it
works. That’s all you need. And then I tell him to levitate off the
floor. And let’s say for a moment my order overrides whatever he might
think about levitation, about how it’s impossible and so on. Because he
is associating levitation with pleasure. And so he DOES rise up off the
floor two feet and he hovers there. See? What do we have? I’ll tell you
what we have. An extraordinary situation. The suspension of the law of
gravitation! We see that a person has THAT LAW INSIDE HIMSELF. GET IT?
HE’S THE ONE WHO IS MAKING THE LAW OF GRAVITATION, AND NOW HE’S
SUSPENDING IT. HE’S LEVITATING.
Q: But he’s doing it—
A: He’s doing it under my control. That’s the key. We’ve got a hell of a
situation then. This guy is suspending the law of gravitation, he’s
floating in the air, he’s doing what people thought was impossible, and
yet he’s doing it because I’m doing this little trick. I’m working with
his own sense of pleasure. That’s why it’s happening. It’s not happening
for any other reason.
Q: So what do you do?
A: There’s nothing I really can do.
Q: Why not?
A: Because the law of his own freedom and choice is a higher law than
him floating in the middle of the room. I make that distinction. I don’t
suddenly say, “The hell with this guy’s freedom of choice, he’s
levitating!” I don’t get sucked into extraordinary effects. I don’t
abandon everything I think is right.
Q: But levitation is possible.
A: Damn right. But he has to do it himself. He has to want to do it
while he’s in an alert state. He has to make the choice. And then he has
to figure out how to do it on his own.
Q: Okay. I get that. But where does the boredom factor come in?
A: It comes in when he’s tried to levitate on his own a hundred times
and he doesn’t do it. Then he says, “I’m bored.” Then he stays right
where he is in his life. Then he gives up. Then he yawns and turns on
the TV. And THAT BOREDOM AND THAT SURRENDER IS THE BOX YOU WERE TALKING
ABOUT. THAT’S ALL IT IS. THAT’S HOW IT WORKS. HOW IT HAPPENS.
Q: People give up.
A: Yes, but they give up in a rather extraordinary way. You see, they
CAN levitate. It’s possible. But they try it and they think they’ve
failed forever, and then they decide it’s impossible, and then they go
back to being consumers and so on.
Q: And then they come to see you as patients.
A: (laughs) Right. That’s exactly how it happens. People try to do
extraordinary things in their lives, and then they give up, and then
they search around for help. And they come to a person like me, because
they think I’ll be able to do it for them. I’ll be able to tap into
their pleasure centers. I’ll be able to direct them. And I can. I can
get people to do all sorts of things. But what about when I stop?
Q: So you need to teach them how to tap into their own pleasure centers.
A: No. NO. That’s just one way to do it. But it’s limited. It only works
for a while. A pleasure center shifts. It doesn’t stay the same. It
wears out. The boredom takes over. It’s like, to use a gross example,
porn. Most people, if they watch porn, get bored with it after awhile.
And the people who don’t get bored are really miserable, because they’re
desperately trying to eke out one more millimeter of pleasure from it,
and it takes monumental effort just to get that one more millimeter.
There are diminishing returns.
Q: Pleasure centers shift and wear out.
A: Yeah. Which tells you these centers are not really in the brain.
They’re in the consciousness, which is different. Pleasure centers, the
most powerful ones, are in energy fields that exist in other spaces. Let
me tell you about another experiment I once did. This one was really
funny and very wild. I hypnotized a man and had him tell me about his
pleasure centers. This guy was already rich, and he was a shopping
addict. He bought stuff every day of his life. He went all over the
country buying things and bidding at auctions. Anyway, he found a
pleasure center he said had to do with owning things. That was the way
he put it. And when I had him describe that pleasure center, he told me
it was like the pitted and blackened hull of an old moon. It had been
burned. It was wasted. It had no life on it. It was very grim.
Q: So he was beyond bored with himself.
A: Correct. He was trying to squeeze every drop of pleasure possible out
of owning things, and he was dying from it. His mind was like a cinder
after a forest fire. That’s all he had left.
Q: Back to these pleasure centers.
A: They shift, as I said. The really important ones move around. But why
are they there in the first place? Because the person put them there.
That’s how it happens. And why does he put them there? Because he’s
looking for a way to be an android. See? That’s what’s happening.
Q: You’ve lost me.
A: A person decides he can do very little himself. So he decides that if
he creates pleasure centers, then other people will be able to control
him through those pleasure centers, and in controlling him, they’ll be
able to get him to do things he can’t do himself. I know it sounds
crazy, but that’s the way it works. And that’s really the definition of
a biological android.
Q: That’s quite a mouthful.
A: I know. It took me a long time to figure that one out. I had a
patient in a trance, and I asked him to locate a pleasure center, and he
did, and then I asked him to sketch me a history of that pleasure
center. And you know what? He took it all the way back to a previous
lifetime on a different planet. I’m just giving you what he told me. He
had been a soldier in an army, and he quit and he went to live in some
kind of hedonistic settlement, and he began to do various styles of
meditation, and he began to invent—INVENT—a part of his mind that
hadn’t existed before. It was a pleasure center, and he hoped it would
become something that could be tapped into by other people, who would
use it to get him to the place we would call Nirvana.
Q: That’s what he said?
Q: You get some wild things from patients.
A: You know why? Because I’ll ask them anything. I’ll ask them for
information everyone else says is impossible or non-existent. But I
assume a patient can tell me anything. He can go anywhere and give me
answers to anything.
Q: So you say this pleasure-center thing leads to being a biological
A: Yes, a person waiting to take orders. And that person hopes the
orders will catapult him to a higher state, or a state that “fulfills
his best function.” You see? That’s an android. An android wants an
operator. An outside operator. And an android wants to fulfill his own
best function. An android believes he’s designed to achieve a best
function. And he believes that, in order to do that, he needs an outside
Q: A controller.
Q: So all this amounts to serious brainwashing.
A: You bet. Based on pleasure. You saw the Ridley Scott film, Blade
A: Well, he got it right. Except he introduced this little extra factor,
that the androids—WHICH WERE ALL PLEASURE MODELS—knew they had been
created with limited functions, and they were rather sad about it. Scott
was on the right track. The androids weren’t really controlled through
pain. They were controlled through design and through pleasure inputs.
Pleasure possibilities, in a certain range.
Q: And that’s a vision of the future.
A: That’s where brain science really wants to take this society.
Q: Common denominators. Across the board, with every human.
A: Absolutely. And we need to realize that. Of course, if a person is
already inside that sphere of limitation, he’s NOT going to realize it.
He’s going to continue to live under the delusion that people are very
different. He’s going to see THAT. But he’s wrong. People are becoming
more and more alike.
Q: But making people into carbon copies of each other—that’s a
synthetic creation. A synthetic world.
A: Yes. A fiction that is being made into a reality. Let me explain
something. Let’s say you’ve got two people who are married. They love
each other. And they see lots of common ground. They think their future
is going to be a piece of cake. But it doesn’t turn out that way.
Because they are coming under pressure. The convenient similarities are
cracking apart. As the years pass, despite their best efforts, they are
drifting apart. What at first seemed like “two peas in a pod”—that’s
disintegrating. Why? Because a truth is being exposed. These two people
are quite different. The sameness? That was a fiction, in many respects.
That was a story they told themselves. It worked for a time, but then it
doesn’t work anymore. When they got married, there was a certain android
aspect to the whole thing. Two people stimulating each other’s pleasure
centers. Two peas in a pod. I’m not saying that was the whole basis for
their relationship, because it wasn’t. But it was there. And now it’s
not. The pleasure centers have shifted and changed, the boredom factor
has set in, and stimulation from the pleasure centers is harder to get.
It isn’t so easy anymore. And when that android formula doesn’t work,
what are they going to do? Are they going to fold up under pressure? Are
they going to drift further and further apart?
Q: So what is the answer?
A: I want to make sure you understand this. People, under their own
radar—hiding it from themselves—swear allegiance to a pleasure
principle—they see that as a valuable goal. And they create these
pleasure centers for themselves in their minds—and they wait for
someone to come along and zing that pleasure center—and then they
define that zing feeling as love or bliss or ecstasy or Nirvana or
whatever. You see? This activity is going on below the surface in many
people. You don’t see it. But you see the effects of it. And as a
result, all these people begin to resemble each other more and more. And
they can be controlled en masse, from the outside, by advertising and
gossip and TV and sugar and junk food with the right mixture of various
elements and even certain religious and political sentiments. Cheap
sentiments. All based on that pinging and zinging of the pleasure
centers. And believe me, I’m not against pleasure. I’m for it. But not
in those pleasure centers, and not to the exclusion of everything else.
So as millions and millions of people become more like each other—by
this process—you get a strange effect. They are all more or less
living inside the same pleasure bubble, and that bubble becomes their
space. That’s how they really define the space of their lives. You see?
That’s where they ARE. And THEN, within that space, they begin to look
around and figure out what’s going on.
Q: They’re already inside the bubble.
A: Right. That’s what I just said. So how do they sort out things from
inside the bubble? They begin to look for differences between people,
and also similarities. They begin to compare and contrast. They begin to
pick and choose which people they like and which people they don’t
like—and all this is happening within the bubble.
Q: So it’s a phony stage set to begin with.
A: Yeah. And the real job is to get them to get outside the bubble.
Because, outside the bubble, there are levels of pleasure that far
surpass what’s happening inside. The pleasure outside is far different
and far more real and far more rewarding. And it’s not androidal. People
outside the bubble are not waiting for the zing to come in from an
operator. That’s not how it works.
Q: How does it work?
A: IMAGINATION—CREATION—ACTION. That’s the superior sequence.
Q: And where does love come in?
A: It’s a more robust form of love outside the bubble. It has more
dimensions. It has more staying power. It doesn’t depend on shifts of
pleasure centers and boredom.
Q: Suppose, in a relationship, you have a person outside the bubble and
a person inside the bubble?
A: (laughs) Forget it. You’ve got a formula for misery.
Q: It would seem that when a person creates these pleasure centers, he’s
profoundly surrendering. He doesn’t see any other future.
A: Yeah, most of the time. But sometimes a person will do it just for a
kick. He wants a new experience. He doesn’t call it BEING A SLAVE TO
PLEASURE, but he eventually will get into that space, that bubble, and
then he won’t easily see a way out. He’s moving more toward becoming an
android. But there is always a leakage. A leakage of real creative
energy—his own energy—coming in. And if he can identify that, he can
realize he’s been tied up on a lower level.
Q: Suppose you get a society where most of the people have become
androids. Suppose that happens.
A: Then they are all in the bubble. They seek pleasure only at that
level, and they’re stimulated by pleasure at that level. Then all hell
A: Because the boredom sets in faster. It’s transmitted telepathically
from person to person. The pleasure centers wear out faster. At that
point, the frustration collectively builds up and explodes.
Q: Which leads to?
A: The operators use more and more drastic measures to keep people in
the bubble. More invasive means. But that automatically cuts down the
pleasure sensation. Law of diminishing returns.
Q: And the operators? What space are they in?
A: Ultimately? Dead space. That’s what makes them operators. They just
sit there in a kind of vacuum. They’re the living dead. They get their
only pleasure from operating the androids. And that, too, has
diminishing returns. That too leads to more invasive means and more
force. The whole thing collapses.
Q: Like an exploding star.
A: I once asked a patient to describe the collapse. She was a very
bright woman and I had worked with her for a year or so. She said the
collapse was like an amusement park ride that had gone off the rails,
and everyone was thrown out. Centrifugal force. An end point. She also
said the androids had been aiming for that, because they couldn’t see
any other route of escape. This is pretty much why societies are based
on war. War is the thing people think will wake them up and get them out
of the bubble.
Q: Does it?
A: Temporarily. But then they sink back.
Q: So you say there is a higher sequence.
A: Yes. It’s not inside the bubble. It’s self-initiated. It’s a whole
different space. It’s forceful. Many people are afraid of it, because
they associate powerful action with doing harm. That’s a lie. That’s
conditioning. That’s a piece of bullshit they learn. That’s why they go
for “restful” and “peaceful” spiritual systems. They hit that ceiling
where they’ve been taught that they might do harm, and they bounce off
that ceiling, and they come down into the bubble, and then they get that
glazed and “peaceful” look. They sometimes try to go for a pastel
Nirvana. It never works.
Q: This reminds me of the man you told me about. The astral guy. The one
who “took trips to heaven” and came back. He found that restful place,
and he saw that it was conditioning. It was a grand illusion created by
A: I’ll introduce you to him. He has some fantastic things to report.
End of interview
This is just one interview in the NEWSLETTER COLLECTION. This is just a
few pages out of nearly 4000 pages. And I did meet “the man who went to
heaven,” and I interviewed him, too. Several times. Those explosive
interviews are in the collection as well.
You get the whole newsletter collection free when you sign up for my
RELATIONSHIP workshop, if you sign up by May 22.
JON RAPPOPORT www.nomorefakenews.com